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WEBINAR | How to Drive an Effective Process Management Culture in Your Organization.
What if the way we manage processes could redefine the very fabric of an organization's culture?
Join Tarryn Jordaan and Hans Trunkenpolz, founder of ht+a, as we unravel the transformative power of process ownership in aligning internal processes with the ever-evolving external landscape. Let's challenge the traditional notion that quality management is solely a department's responsibility and instead envision it as a comprehensive business operating system that thrives on cross-departmental collaboration. We'll delve into the necessity of bridging internal and external dynamics, ensuring that your processes remain agile and ready to face economic and political challenges head-on.
Negative egos can be a silent killer in the corporate realm, stifling progress and innovation. We tackle this pervasive issue, discussing how understanding human behaviour and energy flow is crucial in evolving organizational structures. Discover how onboarding can become a powerful tool for addressing ego and empowering HR to lead cultural transformations. We'll explore the benefits of flattened hierarchies and how they can foster an environment where fear is replaced with creative empowerment and employees feel encouraged to innovate and initiate change.
Can artificial intelligence be the catalyst for profound cultural change from the ground up? We explore AI's exciting possibilities in this arena, arguing against the age-old belief that transformation must start from the top. By empowering individuals at all levels, we highlight the importance of maintaining momentum and discipline to achieve lasting cultural shifts. You'll hear about practical strategies and the role of boldness and bravery in challenging the status quo, making your workplace not just a place of work, but a hub of innovation and dynamism. Don't miss this opportunity to gain insights that could revolutionize your organization's approach to change.
Sign up for our self-paced courses or instructor-led workshops at www.ht-a.solutions
Sign up for our self-paced courses or instructor-led workshops at www.ht-a.solutions
Sign up for our self-paced courses or instructor-led workshops at www.ht-a.solutions
Wonderful. So welcome everybody to HTA's webinar for this month, and our topic today is around process ownership, and so before I get into it much, much further, I will see to introduce myself to those of you who don't know me. I'm Taryn. I've been with the company for a few years now, very much in the marketing and technology front, and recently taken on responsibilities in the operational side. I work very closely with our founder, mr Hans Trunkenpols himself, and I'm pleased to say today, in case you didn't realize, boss, is the 11th time you have the pleasure of doing a webinar with me. In the years Wow.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Well, hello Taryn and hello everybody out there. Thanks for having me today.
Tarryn Jordaan:The thing is after 11 already. You're always cool as a cucumber. I'll always be nervous on the day. That's what comes from a lifetime of training and everything I reckon.
Hans Trunkenpolz:I suppose yeah.
Tarryn Jordaan:So I think Hans doesn't need a lot of introduction to most of you. He is a certified IETF auditor, thousands of days of audits under his belt, as well as other standards such as VDA 6.3 process auditing. He is the man to ask about auditing, man to ask about auditing Not only auditing, but he's super passionate about some topics that come out of the management standards that we at HTNA specialize in, and one of them being process ownership. So we usually come up with these topics out of FAQs what gets asked by clients out of FAQs, what gets asked by clients. Not only do clients mention process ownership a lot over time. It's the third time we're hosting a webinar about this topic actually, hans, not only the second and so what occurs to me is you know this topic again. Why is it so key? What's always stood out to me is it's about culture and especially top management implementing that culture and cultural change. But for you, why are companies still struggling with implementing a process ownership culture when it comes to process management?
Hans Trunkenpolz:Well, taryn, exactly for those reasons that you just brought forward. The first thing we need to understand is that processes have been now identified in the organizations and they have been put in place. We need to understand there are two main frameworks in which we operate such processes. There is, on the one side, the internal framework. This is where the organizations basically implement a business operating system. It's better known today as the quality management system, but I like to stay away from this wording because it's still, to this day, very misleading, where top management says well, it's a quality management system and there we have a quality department. For so let's delegate the whole burden of this management standard into the quality department. And now it is the quality people that are still running with this obligation, unfortunately to this day. But if you have a closer look, that so-called quality management system is actually the framework of a business operating system, because it involves each and every department on all functions and levels. And in this internal framework that is stipulated, that is documented in certain procedures, in manuals, in policies. The organizational structures are in place. The processes, as I said before, are identified, correctly or incorrectly. I don't want to elaborate on that too much. The roles and responsibilities have been assigned and for the processes also, certain control mechanisms have been put in place. In order to get an understanding if my process delivers what we, what we desire. So this internal, this internal business operating system is now applied.
Hans Trunkenpolz:But then, over and above, we have also another framework, which is the outer world. We like to call it the external factors that affect an organization, and just to bring forward a couple of examples the global economy is currently giving us all headache, I would like to believe. Inflation rates go up, political crises and wars don't help. There is just a variety, and it could go on. Emergent markets are not developing as they should be, so there's a lot of turbulence in the outer field. And this is what we need to understand.
Hans Trunkenpolz:When we have a very static internal framework in our business operating system, that may not be too static because it actually has to permanently adapt to the ever-changing outside factors that the world brings in there. And effective process management does not only cater the internal processes, but it also goes into the interface, where it reacts to the changing factors in the external. So this is very important to understand and from that perspective, yeah, as you asked, and from their perspective, yeah, as you asked, you have the processes identified, but who is managing them? Just think about the standards. Basically ask now and call for so-called process owners.
Hans Trunkenpolz:The way we design, to this day, process owners is hey, we have already department leaders, so the department leader becomes now also a process owner, and I think we elaborated that in our last or one of our last webinars. So, but who is effectively managing that? And and this is definitely where where the problem comes in, and that's why I'm not surprised that the change in the culture of that is one of the key words that we need to tackle, I think, in this hour to come.
Tarryn Jordaan:Absolutely makes sense to me that those internal processes and factors need to be flexible to account for the external and to be honest, I can think of that into pretty much any topic in the workplace. It doesn't even go around management systems or today's topic. So about the processes and departments processes do include and affect departmental tasks.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So how does that equate to you? Yeah, they do. They certainly do, but not in a silo concept as we have it right now, but in a flow. A process must flow. A process must flow into each and every function and level. If you just think about a new product implementation and who is ever involved in launching a new product? That that easily and quickly understands that nearly every faculty and function of the organization is playing a role in that. But the problem we are sitting here is these are the the main drivers. I would say we're still stuck in in all of organizing businesses first and we're also still stuck in old behavioral structures, structures of human behavior, and this is a critical factor as we look at it right now. But I want to illustrate that maybe starting with this departmental thinking versus a process environment. I think that's very critical because before this is not really solved there is very little to no chance to get into an effective process management, because it hinders also the culture that comes with.
Tarryn Jordaan:I'm just going to quickly share yeah, it is a tough one to remind around what it realistically brings yeah, absolutely.
Hans Trunkenpolz:But if you look, if you look into a standard structure of an organization in this day and age, you, you will find you, you will find um this, these departmental approaches. And if you look at a normal and a normal organization chart, you have on top the general and then you have in the first line your platoon leaders and then you have your soldiers. That that's how you structure an army, literally, and that is often how we also run the organization. But I don't know if our listeners have ever made some time to think about what is actually the definition of a department. But whether you have or not, I've done this for you, but whether you have or not, I've, I've done this for you and you will find that the definition is a major territorial administrative subdivision.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So what does that mean for our business, running these departments? Not only that, we, we run our departments like a territory, we and we also subdivide us from the self, from the whole context of the business flow, of the process flow. And here comes the trouble, because now we act like lions, as you can see in this illustration here. And if you want to take this further and if you want to look at what is actually the definition of a territory, and that territory is a definition that comes from the animal world and that says that this is an area that an animal defends against intruders, especially of the same species, especially of the same species. So so, if you want to do yourself a favor, taryn and people out there, if you replace that word animal by human being or management, uh, then then you see exactly where we stand to this day, and that is all um pray to that sometimes that is.
Hans Trunkenpolz:That is obviously a definition. That firstly explains the problem we have. When I said earlier, we haven't given up on structures of human behaviors Because these organizational structures as we have it today.
Hans Trunkenpolz:It supports and promotes the development of kingdoms and queendoms and these silos, as we call them. They get now protected against intruders. And you hear this often out there when a production manager says well, my KPIs would be all green and my dashboard would be all looking super, but HR, they are not bringing me those 15 direct workers that I ordered. So if they would do the job, my dashboard would be green and, by the way, maintenance if they would do a better job and my machines would run all the time. So if they do a better job, my dashboard is green. And this is unfortunately what the situation is in too many of the cases today.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So people in these kingdoms and queendoms are starting to play ping pong and finger point and say whose fault is it?
Hans Trunkenpolz:Because it cannot be my fault, because my sheet is clean.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So once we understand that now we can link this to what I said earlier it requires a certain human behavior to allow a process to flow through all these territories, because if they are protected and defended, you consequently have your risk assessment on the process interfaces, because they are, needless to mention, interconnected to one another.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So if these boundaries are protected and it's not my fault, but it is yours, then you can imagine how much loss you have and how much risk occurs in those process interfaces by not making decisions, by not providing information in time and the likes of. But at the end of the day, there's a customer waiting at the end of the process that doesn't have any time for a company's cats and dog fights and protections and whatnot and territory and the likes of. And now that we talk about effective process management and the culture thereof, you can understand that this current setup of management, which will significantly change in the near future already I can tell you that already and it's also explainable. I will elaborate a little bit on that later it's not really favoring a smooth process flow through the organization.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So the question that we have today is are we running this hierarchy of an army like lions? Running this hierarchy of an army like lions or are we running it as adults? You know that have open doors for communication and for other silos and for your problems and and and the likes of. So this is currently unfortunately not in favor of of a smooth flow, because a process and I just illustrated that here as silos and you find all these different, different departments, these silos and and this is actually how a process flows the process is only then smooth, effective and efficient when yes and multiple times, again and again and again.
Hans Trunkenpolz:You know, if you should and I like to refer this this new product implementation right, then there is hardly any, any faculty or function in the organization that is not coming to the party to to have a smooth sailing and bring bring a project nicely over the finish line and consequently, we often have delays in in the launches and have too many iteration loops because it wasn't fitting in quality or in time.
Hans Trunkenpolz:And now, when you have that situation that all these silos are protected to a certain extent sometimes more, sometimes less, but in general and I've seen this in nearly 50 countries where I applied services it's a phenomenon that is just still, to this day, very, very present. There's many good managers, many good leaders out there, but in general, I must say this is the current state of working in too many of the cases and consequently, the project management cannot be effective such as, and therefore it needs a huge cultural change, in which we will be supported very soon, but I also will elaborate on that a little bit later. I also will elaborate on that a little bit later. So that is number one of the reasons that I would like to bring forward as to why it needs that cultural change and why the processes are not flowing smoothly.
Tarryn Jordaan:It's like a piece of modern art there in front of us all. Yeah, it's a complex.
Hans Trunkenpolz:It's the great of complex of process management is definitely present.
Tarryn Jordaan:So, based on what you're saying, to me it sounds like you might map, you might identify, map and define and implement your processes as beautifully as you want, but the siloed protection of territories, being lions, is the problem to them running smoothly. I think that was the key you said earlier for the flow of the processes.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Exactly because of the interface management. Yeah.
Tarryn Jordaan:So to you, what is hindering that, what is preventing that Top reason?
Hans Trunkenpolz:That would be a word with three letters. It's called ego. It's just as simple as that. It's the ego we are driving around and you will see that all this will come to a change, whether we like it or not. But at this current state, and and again and that's why I'm repeating, I'm not surprised that this topic made it into your, into your top five list. It's, it's, it's just the ego. We're a bunch of egos, right, and I'm, and I'm not necessarily about ego, because every human being has an ego. I'm talking about negative ego. I mean, ego in itself is a spectrum, it's neither positive or negative. But I'm talking about negative ego of being grumpy, being too demanding, you know, just telling you what you have to do, and the likes of, so everything that humans don't like to be told all the time, and um and uh.
Tarryn Jordaan:That is the, the second big, big block of, of uh, hindering the processes, the processes to flow okay, yeah, you know, I was just gonna say we all have egos, whether we want to admit it or not.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Um part of you, but again, it's a spectrum, it's a ego per se is not negative or positive. Everybody has it's built into the human structure, so, but it can be positive and it can be negative. So apparently I'm talking about the negative side of of the ego that comes into play and that's that many people in the factories out there are suffering from. So so the negative ego, yeah yeah, I gotcha.
Tarryn Jordaan:I mean, it's around everywhere. It's not only a professional thing, it's a personal life and everything as well. How do you tackle ego, though? That's a big topic and a difficult thing to change.
Hans Trunkenpolz:I mean Einstein already said it, and there is this famous quote of Einstein where he says the biggest kind of madness is to change nothing but expecting things to become better. So Beautiful quote. So how are you going to change that? I can tell you. I mean this is individually, but I can tell you. I mean this is individually, but I can tell you what the mainstream is, and I spent a lot of time in, in studying the new gigatrends and megatrends of the future, especially in these areas, uh, of of of human resource and human behavior, because that is always the missing link. You know you can always be good in products and process, but but how do we take care of the people you know and how do we treat one another in an organization? That's apparently, uh, what, what is missing. But how are you going to do it?
Hans Trunkenpolz:I can tell you the future, what, what is foreseen? I mean, in the area of hr, the whole onboarding process will entirely change. So the human behavior structures will be a lot more coming into focus. We are still too much onboarding based on skills, knowledge and experiences to a certain field where I need capacity, experiences to a certain field where I need capacity, and not so much about the ego side of it. What's, what's the personality setup and and the like and and the likes of? So that will will be reinforced, that must be reinforced in in any case to understand more about the human behavior structure During onboard. There will be new technologies coming into the onboarding processes where we understand more.
Hans Trunkenpolz:We need to upskill also HR departments in neuroscience and even energy work, in even energy work, even with quantum physics and quantum mechanics, to understand how the energy flows, not only from a process paper to a process paper, but how does energy flow from humans to humans? So that's going to come massively forward to support that cultural change process because it is as Einstein said we can impossibly believe that something's changed if we don't change ourselves first. That would be a nonsense. All right, and it will be supported by actually reinforcing and bringing more in and every study that we went through says that and rightfully so is these areas in onboarding, in neuroscience, in psychology and industrial psychology aspects will be reinforced because it's just too time-consuming, too difficult to change over. So we need to already address that in the onboarding processes and the likes of. But it is what it is and that structure that we have today. It is more than needed. It's more than needed.
Tarryn Jordaan:Absolutely, hans. I must say it's always interesting to listen to you and I'm sure a lot of people, especially if they haven't met you, he has. The auditor, mechanical engineer, you know all these factors. And then it's interesting to always listen to you talk about the human side and these passions you have for, um, for people, um, it's all. It's always just an interesting juxtaposition to me, after even a few years of of working with you. Um, I I get what you're saying. You've mentioned all these challenges that need attention, but what do we do about it? And it's largely negative ego traits that drive our world. Unfortunately, negativity can be more powerful than positivity at times. So how do we change that in the organizational setting?
Hans Trunkenpolz:Well, first of all, the mainstream will be the organizational structures will look different in the near future in any case. So, as we said, we cannot continue the same way of doing, expecting things to come better. So the organizational structure will support this. They will become a lot more tight, lean, if you want to call it that. They will have a flattened pyramid in their organizations. There will be a lot of operators on the lower levels will no more longer accept to be just operational enforcers.
Hans Trunkenpolz:You need to understand the situation is there. There is so much fear, energy in the organizations for losing jobs and the likes of so. People in our organizations and factories have lost their voice. They're not pushing back, accepting too much, and that feeds of course also the ego on the other side because there's no pushback coming.
Hans Trunkenpolz:It's an easy prey. But in the future and I can also explain to you why people don't want to be any much longer these operational enforcers they will push back, they will find their voice. And when I say push back, I don't mean to be disrespectful or rude, no, but with facts and data. Not accepting because you're the manager, I have to do it. That will come to a standstill and it will come to a standstill very soon. I think we will speak about this a little bit later and that is just the new generations that are coming into the labor market.
Hans Trunkenpolz:But the organizational structure of the future I don't know if I have the slides here this is the current management setup that we have. All right. So there is somewhere in the top managed, depending on what size you are. I come from the corporate world and from those large, large giga companies all the way down to small and medium enterprise companies. But top management, yeah, responsible for the corporate strategy, let's put it that way and then you have this very dangerous middle-class management, I must say, because they are currently, at this point in time, just administrative controllers. Yeah, they just control the workforce, and then you have the line management. They are exactly these operational enforcers. They they get told they have to report back to the middle management. But if we report problems up there, yeah, now you just have to do it. It is unfortunately how it is.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So, from an administrative controller down to the operational enforcer, and that, as a current management setup, will change, and I also can tell you why. I can also tell you how it will look like. All right, and let's take the bottom up. The line manager will become, and will convert to become, real entrepreneurs. Become and will convert to become real entrepreneurs. An entrepreneur is that thinks and acts as an entrepreneur in the organization and manage with decision power, with authorities and the likes of Authorities are not really given. What's interesting in the in the middle class, in the middle management, they will have to become, and will become, internal development workers. This will be now the managers. That understands that they will be a service provider to the line management. So their job is to get all obstacles out of the way so that the line management can act as an entrepreneur, if that makes sense.
Tarryn Jordaan:Yeah, okay, yes.
Hans Trunkenpolz:All right, and from that perspective and the top management will apply that leadership, but leadership in the true sense of the word leadership and lay out the values. But now they will have in the middle management a strong workers, not managers and VPs and all the likes of workers that understand that the operations are putting food on the plate. So they will understand, the middle management will understand that they have to get obstacles out of the way so the operations can do what they do best. And you see this in so many times in the current structure, these powerful operations. They have to report and often you have remote functions of engineering, of business units and the likes of remote functions somewhere in the head office. All right, and all these functions they need to understand. The only reason why they get up in the morning is to get obstacles out of the way so that operations can do what they do best, and that is to put food on the plate. But in true fact, in reality, today is the plant. They have to report, you have to do this, you have to do that, and that's carried on further to the top management. There is so much inefficiency, there's so much inefficiency, there's so much inefficiency, so so the top range management will be, will be workers in the true sense of the word, understanding why is it not working? What does my operation need? What does the line management need to really act as an entrepreneur? That's going to be the future, and why do I say this and why do I say this with confidence? That is? That is simply because there's a new, there is a brand new generation coming into the labor markets, and that is generation alpha. And generation alpha started already in 2010 to this day, so they are now 14 15 years old, but they will come sooner, later, into the labor market.
Hans Trunkenpolz:We have the current one in generation set and I can see this already. I can see this already. These guys are now driving this change. In any case, it will support the process that is so much needed. Uh, in order to get to in a respectful environment, and you can still deal with troubles, okay, but holding the finger and pushing up the pressure, pulling up the pressure and the like. So I'm not going to make the situation better, but what's coming here in Chancet and with Chan Alpha guys, let's bubble up.
Hans Trunkenpolz:When they run into this labor market, expect nothing less but complete revolution. They will not take, they will not push back. They will not hold back, sorry, they will push back. They will challenge management like they've never been challenged before. They do not accept nothing what we have today and that is much needed and it's a great, great thing that's coming and I can see it already in the Gen Set. So Generation Set is now entering also leadership positions and I can see it already. I meet so many of them. I talk to many also on Gen Alpha and the likes of it. It really freshens up your mind, you know, and that doesn't mean that the surrounding issues don't become later. But it's not going to be dominated by the management in top-down pressure and there we have the operational enforcers on the bottom only because we were told so there will be pressure coming up left, right and center.
Tarryn Jordaan:They will push back it's already been an interesting, an interesting mix. We've got how many? We've got three, four, four generations in the workplace, now boomers, millennials. Am I missing?
Hans Trunkenpolz:well, I'm a baby boomer, huh.
Tarryn Jordaan:Are you?
Hans Trunkenpolz:a boomer, probably one of the oldest here in this whole forum, but I can tell you I always love to work with people, and always behind the curtains, and also always try to understand different standpoints of view and the likes of. So I meet a lot of young people, young engineers, in generation sets there is, there is really something coming forward that that will support this change in uh, in, in, in a, in a, in a strong way. So, please, we do not expect anything less than than revolution, but in a positive way, in a positive way and um, so I, I can't wait, I I might see them still in action, but uh, but it's definitely a good thing to, to, to come here, but that doesn't really help the current situation as of yet for this cultural change, technically speaking, and it's really as simple as that if we suck up our egos a little bit better.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Every person that is included in operations in an organization can decide every second, every minute, every hour to behave differently. Because if you behave this way or that way, it's always a choice, and that is a choice that an individual human makes. And that is a choice that an individual human makes. So if you can decide to be disrespectful, you could also choose to work any other way. There is no top management, there's no management approval needed, there is no CAPEX approval needed. You decide that every second, every minute, every hour. Boom, just as simple as that. It's's a choice, it's a choice you make.
Hans Trunkenpolz:And but I can tell you something, and this is what I already said earlier if one understands and I started to to look into self-study, I must say in neuroscience and in quantum physics it is just insane. I mean that we are all energetically connected. One needs to understand that and you are affected by emotion. But if you wouldn't be energetically connected, why do you create a negative emotion if somebody is disrespectful to you? So there is the connection already. So there's a lot of that coming in in the future to drive that cultural change process in any case. But that's the future, that's the future picture that we, that we have to get prepared for and and the old structures, as, as I showed it before, yeah, we will. We will put this to bed once and for all, that way of of working and, uh, the good will win, I like this dot tons.
Tarryn Jordaan:I mean this year we we have really tried to embrace process ownership at htna and we're not perfect I mean mean none of us are and also in terms of humans, some of us have bad reactions at times. We are all human. But I see, with your next slide, where you had the future management set up, where you've been aiming for us as an organization and what we're trying to do, we may not be getting it perfectly, but I'm pretty proud of HTNA, how we are going about process ownership in a small organization in terms of the core operations. So it's interesting for me to see little things piecing together.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Yeah, yeah, but but when you refer to that you, you also. You also experience that, that people change their behavior because they chose to yeah, of course, of course so, and the day before they maybe reacted differently. So it's a choice. It's a choice that every single human being can make and from that perspective it will be supported due to the before said. But you probably ask me now what are we going to do until Generation Alpha and Z is fully on the speed? What are we doing for the people today?
Tarryn Jordaan:No, it's not only us everybody. How can the current culture be changed?
Hans Trunkenpolz:The current culture be changed. Yeah, that's usually especially the cultural changes. It is, as you said, a change process. Yeah, it's a change process. In this particular case, culture change processes are typically driven top down. So, coming back to to einstein, if you keep on doing it the same way, we cannot expect that things change.
Tarryn Jordaan:All right.
Hans Trunkenpolz:And there is a nice and in most of the change projects that I'm involved myself also covering cultural aspects of it we prefer what we call the cross current approach, and the cross-current approach is basically an approach where it's not delegated and dictated from top down, because then you have these operational enforcers again. They have to do because it was said and stipulated in the procedure, in a new guideline, in our new values, and we have to do it. Procedure and a new guideline and our new values and we have to do it. So so the the quickest and most effective way of of is looking into and this is where I would like to encourage people also to consider that is uh. Is that uh counter current principle? And's a thing. So it starts, of course, with a certain goal definition that comes from management and there is nothing wrong. But what is different in this approach is that these current goals get into a review where the teams, the employees, are invited to review that and provide their own suggestions before that is fed back for any further consolidations and resolutions. All right, and once that is made and the resolutions, how you implement that, is also fed back now to the teams or to the employees, I should say on a variety of functions and levels, and generate that feedback.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Because it is no, it is the common knowledge these days that wherever you were allowed to actively bring your inputs, you have a quicker buy-in. You, you, just because it's part, it's part of yours, you know if, if you get dictated, if you say, do this because I say so, because I'm the manager, because who the hell you are? Uh, people, people don't like that and that should be known now by everybody. So the approach why this is this is so important here is is because it integrates it. But remember the practical problems we have. It is not opportune anymore today for managers to ask an operator for help. But why is it that way? Because I'm the manager, because I have to be in control, because I have to know, because I'm the manager Eager, it is really. Yeah, here comes ego, yeah, thank you Terry. It is not opportune to go down there to ask an operator for help, for an opinion Forever, and this has been developed over time.
Hans Trunkenpolz:And now we have the situation that managers are just too much disconnected from the people. And if you want to manage people, if you want to change the culture, managing people is managing expectations. People have expectations on different functions and levels. So if that means you need to understand the expectations. But you only find out these expectations when you engage with people. But here's the problem, taryn, that the set of expectations for Taryn at the age of 20 is a different set of expectations of Taryn with 40. Expectations change over time and that means you just don't engage with the people once to find out the expectation. It's a repetitive process, it's an ongoing process.
Hans Trunkenpolz:We're too much disconnected and if one wants to find that out, this is a very practical way but it requires to suck up egos. I can tell you that much. Whoever is ready and prepared, we've had wonderful, wonderful workshops where people are waking up. It's the people who are waking up now anyway, I can see it's everywhere. It's just some is finding it still difficult to to give up these old structures, as as I elaborated earlier. But uh, there will be, there will be respectfully pushed by by the new generations that coming in now anyway. So so they'll be fine. And the baby boomers, like myself, are finding themselves on the end of their professional careers anyway. So we make place for what's new to come. But this is definitely a very powerful and effective way in changing cultural aspects of the organization. Implement just to include them in this whole process, not make it a program that's again ordered from top down, because that's why we have the current structures that we have.
Tarryn Jordaan:So that will be my two cents for that. I must say, actually, just as I'm thinking on the fly here in, uh, throughout my career I hadn't been in the manufacturing industry per se. A majority of our clients in the core line manufacturing and specifically, um, mostly automotive and aerospace, and although we weren't, it wasn't given a name with the countercurrent principle. Certainly, in previous industries I found that this happened quite a lot and the best leaders and my best managers over time were the ones using this method.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Yeah, and you're right, and I don't want to come across here that everything is bad here. I've met so many beautiful, beautiful people as managers and I've met also a few great leaders in my professional career.
Tarryn Jordaan:But that's not my statement.
Hans Trunkenpolz:That's not my statement. The statement is where we have the room for improvement and everybody must self assess and self reflect himself to say, am I part of the game or am I just trying to bring through my personal egos? And that is just not necessary. And the energetic connection is extremely powerful. It's extremely powerful. So you can do a lot of damage, but you can do also wonder, because the problem doesn't get smaller.
Hans Trunkenpolz:But you have a team aside where there is no, there is no um fear levels behind, where you can openly communicate and feedback without having fear that you get punished and the likes of uh, these guys are the ones that do magic. They do magic. But the key point is guys, every person can decide for himself any second in minutes or hour, because it's a choice to act this way or to act that way, and but the to include the teams on all levels and you can cascade down from level to level as well yeah is what we found everywhere where we get called for such projects the most powerful and the quickest and the most effective way.
Tarryn Jordaan:Yeah, and, like you said, instant buy-in, instant buy-in.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Yeah, because part of the creation. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Tarryn Jordaan:Thank you, hans. We actually that was very interesting to me. I always like this topic with you and I know I told you stick to two main topics because otherwise this one you could talk about, talk about all day. We could sit and chat for hours, um, but uh, that was very interesting to me, hans, and I'm sure, to everybody who's dialed in today. Guys, if anybody has questions, absolutely, we've got a Q&A session available. Please use the chat function or the Q&A function or raise your hand if you would like to speak and join the call Before the age-old question pops up as well. Absolutely, I will share the recordings. Probably around Monday morning. I will email them directly to you, the recordings as well as the slides, and it will be available on our podcast. Please share far and wide, hans. Was there anything else you wanted to add?
Hans Trunkenpolz:Yeah, if Derek.
Tarryn Jordaan:There are a few minutes left Are there no questions. No, we've got one, Martin. Let's see what are some of the typical timelines for such a culture change.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Three to five years.
Tarryn Jordaan:Not overnight.
Hans Trunkenpolz:No, well, depending okay, let me rephrase this Depending on the size of the organization, of course. I would say that frame for big companies, if you look into small and medium enterprises, that can go from one to two years.
Tarryn Jordaan:Still.
Hans Trunkenpolz:The lesser people you need to engage, the quicker, apparently, it goes. But if you look at small and medium enterprises versus corporate world, don't expect anything lesser than that.
Tarryn Jordaan:Makes sense. So we've got quite a few questions coming through. Now Colinda has asked okay, here you go. How do you start the change in thinking?
Hans Trunkenpolz:Colinda is an old friend of mine, so I was expecting nothing less than a question like this. So how do you do it, or where do you start?
Tarryn Jordaan:How do you start? I think why not answer both how and where?
Hans Trunkenpolz:Yeah, look, as I elaborated earlier, everybody can start himself any given time and you might not have, depending on what level and functions you're coming from, is it can be from the bottom. It can be from the bottom and you will start to see how you affect the surrounding people that you are directly connected with in the work. So you already can start from bottom. You can literally start from any time.
Hans Trunkenpolz:It is now commonly we believe we must change the head of the organization. It starts from top down. It's actually not. That's what we believe since 100 years. It's actually not, because if you look into this energy concept of how people are connected energetically and, and, and and that is, in the meantime, also proven science it's no more longer a hocus pocus is how the energy then starts flowing from every level around and you will become affected in either way, in either way.
Hans Trunkenpolz:So I do not believe at all that it has to stop from top down, although the whole world will tell you that this is the only way forward. If they don't change it will. The system will eliminate everybody that's that's affected by this positive energy. And again, anywhere it started in the level of the organization, they will either leave or the system will eliminate them. Um, I don't believe that and I see it all the time. I see, I see it all the time. Um, so anybody, kolinda, anybody can start with and the more people that buy into this concept, and I could tell you actually practical tips, how but we'll go too far this time and where you also have quick response from the field in the organization, that it works and how it works, because you will make the difference. You will make the difference Anybody, any level.
Tarryn Jordaan:But, hans, isn't that tough Like bottom up? And Kalinda added, when the organization is built in a territorial hierarchy, isn't it tough to go bottom up, by definition, if you're facing all those egos, all those factors? But don't think too abstract.
Hans Trunkenpolz:I'm not saying you start at the bottom and then you come to the next level and the next level and the next level. I didn't say that, I said everybody. If you find these individuals and you have these people in every organization they are on different levels If you activate those guys, there is no other way that you affect everybody around you and it will contribute to this whole concept until the people that are not willing to buy and will leave the system will leave them. Okay, got you. So it's on multiple levels at the same time. We just need to find these guys to activate.
Tarryn Jordaan:Yeah, absolutely got you on that. Martin had a follow-up question. Three to five years timeline he does agree. What are some of the practical activities that need to happen during this time?
Hans Trunkenpolz:In that cultural change. Yes, well, in simple terms, as you can see it here, on these countercurrent principles, once the adjustments are made, as you can see, there's also adjustments during the project because you learn, you self-define yourself in this whole drive. But the most important thing is the empowerment of people and keep the momentum going, because that's what we're lacking today. People are not empowered on all functions and levels because it's all controlled through management levels. But now here comes empowerment and that momentum, because if you get this thing rolling, you're creating expectations. As I said earlier, you create expectations and expectations may not be, may not be disappointed, may not be disappointed. So what is hugely important is to drive that thing continuously until it reaches a level of a habit, and you hear this oftentimes in marketing concepts do this 10, 15, 17 days consecutively, because it will become a habit, and that's actually nothing else than to keep the momentum going.
Hans Trunkenpolz:We start so many projects, guys, and then somebody, it just falls flat. And then we start a new project and that falls down flat and then we start a new project. That is brother and sister, guys. You need discipline, because discipline will reinforce your motivation that you generate through that drive and that momentum was built, but not every human being. You don't have the same motivation every day and when the motivation goes down, the discipline must kick in to maintain that and push it through until you really reach the level of of that cultural change. It's just maintaining it over time.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Don't give up too early. This is why most of the projects fall flat. We're giving up too early. Momentum created, then we are all enthusiastic and then somebody now that's not the right way, and then everybody goes down. And then somebody no, that's not the right way, and then everybody goes down and then we start the next project. That's the reality. And the reality is that we need to keep this momentum. But once you got this light ignited anyway and you start believing in and you have your first success factor, it becomes easier and easier to maintain.
Tarryn Jordaan:Absolutely Makes sense and agreed for me. I just wanted to share something from hi Hatcher in Istanbul, our lovely colleague.
Hans Trunkenpolz:My next friend.
Tarryn Jordaan:She wanted to share one memory, one quote One of her managers told her in early days of her working life be bold and be brave. We need to act, speak up and challenge. It works, and I absolutely agree and and hundred percent.
Hans Trunkenpolz:And this is where I said people are not empowered on all functions and we just follow us and that's, and that only serves the ego of a small elite group of people, not the company.
Tarryn Jordaan:Yeah.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Thanks for the input, Hajar.
Tarryn Jordaan:I've got a big question here that perhaps does actually need to be a topic soon. Hansel, Perhaps you do have some ideas and answers. Benson has asked how we can leverage AI in process improvement and ownership.
Hans Trunkenpolz:Very strongly, very strongly, and it started already earlier. I mean, ai is just as you know, taryn, we, we are, we're dealing with this a lot in our operation as well yeah and there's still this common knowledge that, uh, it creates fear.
Hans Trunkenpolz:It creates fear amongst humans when we touch too much digital and technology and and the likes of no, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a powerful tool that that will support. Will support because, remember, we are in chain set. Now they're running into management. Now, for them, digital is not new, like for us baby boomers or the millennials. They just grew up with that, all right, and chain alpha they, they make their whole revolution, just the full implementation of that. So that is nothing new.
Hans Trunkenpolz:That is the useful tools they use to generate and the new generations will also.
Hans Trunkenpolz:They want to communicate, they want to exchange, they want to, because you will be in these new organizations, you will be confronted with an overwhelming amount of cross-departmental activities which we only have in papers, but due to the silos, it'll be disconnected. It's just the paperwork. So AI is, I fully agree, is a powerful tool that we can and, yeah, I would, we could talk for this for a day, but there's so many useful applications where we can for now and how the youngsters will use in the future in any case, and even in the onboarding, as I said with Neurosign, there's so much technologies in onboarding and checking and all onboarding, as said with with with neuroscience. There's so much technologies in onboarding and checking and all that. The technology is already here. It's just the governments are a little bit slow to to get it over the finish line, uh, but uh, yeah, super strong tool will, will be used, will be definitely part of it well, mean I can actually comment also directly on the AI side.
Tarryn Jordaan:As you know, I'm using it quite a lot as well as our dear colleague Ang, our training management lead. And, by the way, ang and I aren't of the younger generations, we're the exception to the norm and we use AI a lot, but not blindly. So I think that's the first one, we would never purport to use AI blindly. But from a process improvement point of view, what it has allowed is actually a freeing up of time as well, to give us that ability to think and own the process and improve things. So it's less busy work and that's been really, really beneficial to us is less busy work to work on those actual improvements and use our human brains. Because I agree with you, we don't need to be scared of AI. It's beneficial. We need to use AI together with that human brain and it's giving us that capacity which we wouldn't have before, and I kind of spoke for you there.
Tarryn Jordaan:I don't know if you would want to add one, but I guess you might feel the same as me wanting to speak up, that it has been beneficial for us and we are trying to roll it out, and we are actively rolling it out more throughout the organization, whether it is AI or automation, and they sometimes get used interchangeably technologically. Anyway, I could also waffle on forever about that one. Hans, we don't have any more questions lined up. I know I asked you at the beginning. I didn't know if you had any final topics you wanted to add. We've just gone over time, typically.
Hans Trunkenpolz:No.
Tarryn Jordaan:I'm fine. Yeah, benson, what are some of the AI tools you are using now In particular? You can see at the start of this, I'm using Read AI for our meetings. I'm also busy testing out Microsoft, microsoft's AI. Aang, in particular, lives on ChatGPT. This is a ton. This is a ton.
Tarryn Jordaan:Benson, I'm happy to have a chat with you. Yeah, take this chat offline to not keep everybody. You'll see my, uh, my email, um, I'll be sending out this um recording to you, to everybody, and let's have a chat. Oh yeah, cool, cool. Thank you, everybody. That is it for today. Have a good one, cheers bye.
